16 Trillion

Its coming soon!

U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

Some people think when a country cannot pay its debt it collapses. That is not true. A country can refuse to pay or honor its debts, and instead take a credit hit - and the creditors can do nothing much. Argentina did that in 2002, Ecuador did that in 2008, Venezuela did that in 2004, Indonesia did that in 2002, Greece did that in 2012,

Apparently, 44% of the world’s nations ever did that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_ … tructuring

The problem is, if America does that now, the world economy would collapse, you can see just a mere credit crisis from the US caused the global stock meltdown last year. That explained why nations like China and Japan keep on buying US debts to maintain US economic health.

Also the truth about who really own the US debts: http://www.miricommunity.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44608

Yes. You are totally right mevotex. Bravo :smiley:

by logic… increasing debt means poorly managed wealth. with their expensive health cost passed to the public, i wonder where are their money going to actually? :oops:

[quote=“mevotex”]Some people think when a country cannot pay its debt it collapses. That is not true. A country can refuse to pay or honor its debts, and instead take a credit hit - and the creditors can do nothing much. Argentina did that in 2002, Ecuador did that in 2008, Venezuela did that in 2004, Indonesia did that in 2002, Greece did that in 2012,

Apparently, 44% of the world’s nations ever did that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_ … tructuring[/quote]

That still does not change the fact though. you said, 16 trillion? …“thats not true”. obviously it is.
You can say, well i own my buddy 100 bucks, but i wont pay him back, so i wont have any debt. what kind of thinking is that?

[quote=“mevotex”]The problem is, if America does that now, the world economy would collapse, you can see just a mere credit crisis from the US caused the global stock meltdown last year. That explained why nations like China and Japan keep on buying US debts to maintain US economic health.

Also the truth about who really own the US debts: http://www.miricommunity.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=44608[/quote]

Yes but that does not mean the debt is shovelled into the basement and put a blanket over and all is best. we must rethink if this can continue. the real problem behind the debt is not the debt itself, it is the need for countries to grow economically, to equal the inflation that comes with printing more money, as an aswer to the debt. so this system is based on debt and growth. now we reached the limit in growth in this decade. we can no longer grow on this planet, we cut one half acres of rain forest every second as we type. this monetary market system fails, and the u.s. is a good example.

I didn’t say the $16 trillion isn’t true, but the notion of a modern country collapsing over debts is unlikely.

Maybe it is common for a person gearing towards socialism to lack complex financial understanding… They scream the capitalism system fails, yet they cannot suggest a better system. Funny why even socialist China and Vietnam are forced to embrace market capitalism for survival.

We are talking about countries, yet you move on giving examples of individuals; the 2 have vast different options of financing instruments: individuals cannot issue debt bonds on market. I already gave a wiki link, showing how 44% of the world’s ever defaulted on their sovereign debts, with the latest being Greece this year. Which part you don’t understand?

We can no longer grow on this planet, we cut one half acres of rain forest every second as we type.

Hahaha… Socialist + environmentalist… Very easy, then don’t type! Throw off the computer. You know, to make a computer you need silicon, plastics, metals, copper, gold, tin, glass & epoxy. Too much resources already! :mrgreen:

Debts certainly isn’t a good thing for America, but if that’s what you look into, you should be more concern about Japan:

Some people keep shouting that the monetary system creates debts, etc, etc, but what they didn’t know is that the modern society couldn’t function without debts. No housing loans, no car loans, no student loans? Pay cash to buy house? Suggest that to the government. Build a no-debt community :lol:

[quote=“mevotex”]
Some people keep shouting that the monetary system creates debts, etc, etc, but what they didn’t know is that the modern society couldn’t function without debts. No housing loans, no car loans, no student loans? Pay cash to buy house? Suggest that to the government. Build a no-debt community :lol:[/quote]
Sounds familiar in Malaysia too? :mrgreen:

[quote=“mevotex”]Maybe it is common for a person gearing towards socialism to lack complex financial understanding… They scream the capitalism system fails, yet they cannot suggest a better system. Funny why even socialist China and Vietnam are forced to embrace market capitalism for survival.

We are talking about countries, yet you move on giving examples of individuals; the 2 have vast different options of financing instruments: individuals cannot issue debt bonds on market. I already gave a wiki link, showing how 44% of the world’s ever defaulted on their sovereign debts, with the latest being Greece this year. Which part you don’t understand?[/quote]

You only send me a link that shows who owns how much american debt, that’s it, and i gave you a pretty good insight in why the free market system can not work this way. I did not use the word capitalism, i said free market monetary based system, that’s the same in Europe, and it does not work, either. Look deeper into it and you will realise that this system is based on endless growth to equal out inflations that come with being in debt. The problem is we can not grow much further! If you are capable of “complex financial understanding” as you said, than you would see this. All you do so is say we hide the debt in our basement and put a blanket over it and continue this way. Buying time, that’s all it is.

Why should a person gearing towards socialism (which i am not by the way) lack complex financial understanding. This system is failing, if you do not recognize that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If you did not see another link I gave, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_ … tructuring

I don’t understand why all the end-day prophecies about ‘the system is failing’, ‘the system will collapse’, and why we cannot grow much further? Since ancient time we have been growing till now, the ongoing financial dilemma in the U.S. did mirrored some of the fiscal challenges faced by the Roman Empire almost 2000 years ago.

The financial problems in Rome in the early part of the third century AD stemmed from a military that was getting too large and expensive. In order to pay the salaries of the army, the emperors of Rome were compelled to mint more coins.

However, the manufacturing of more coins was frustrated by the difficulty and higher costs of silver mining as a result, coins, which had less and less silver, flooded the market, leading to huge inflation in Rome. Eventually, these silver coins became almost worthless (some said quite similar to the US Federal Reserves printing money today)

As such, Rome was in a crisis as its citizens began to lose faith in the banks, the currency and the political leadership. The crisis in Rome did not ease until the emperor Aurelian assumed the throne, introduced coinage reform and reunited the empire. Thereafter, his successor Diocletian enacted further reforms that strengthened the empire and put it back in shape. Thanks to him, Rome would survived for another 200 years before being destroyed by the Germanic tribes from the north.

The Roman Empire tells us that America needs to get a leader capable to fix things, not like what you said “we cannot grow anymore” or “the system is failing”. We can see with our eyes how much the countries making up the former Roman Empire had grown economically for the past 2 millenniums.

[quote=“mevotex”]
Hahaha… Socialist + environmentalist… Very easy, then don’t type! Throw off the computer. You know, to make a computer you need silicon, plastics, metals, copper, gold, tin, glass & epoxy. Too much resources already! :mrgreen:

Debts certainly isn’t a good thing for America, but if that’s what you look into, you should be more concern about Japan:

Some people keep shouting that the monetary system creates debts, etc, etc, but what they didn’t know is that the modern society couldn’t function without debts. No housing loans, no car loans, no student loans? Pay cash to buy house? Suggest that to the government. Build a no-debt community :lol:[/quote]

This is not a critic about the U.S. There are ways to give loans, the answer would be, without interest. What is the value of interests? do they have a value, no they are made of thin air. My concern was the huge amount of debt that is created around the globe, you reply is, look at japan they are doing worse than the U.S.?!? What kind of logic thinking and problem solving is that? Pointing your finger on someone else saying “look they are doing even worse”.

Come on, your messages are something which cannot be understood like “the system is failing”, “we cannot grow anymore” - so I just point to Japan, whose debt-to-GDP ratio is 2 times the US. Japan till now remains relatively stable.

Microsoft has $11 billion in total debts today, when it started out in 1975 do you think the debts was already at that level? Most mega corporations around the world borrow to fuel expansion. The debt level in the US might be critical, but again if the government could balance the budget and promote economic growth (The US economy is still growing, albeit slowly), it’s all good to go. It ain’t like what you said ‘the system is failing’, ‘we can’t grow anymore’.

There are ways to give loans, the answer would be, without interest. What is the value of interests? do they have a value, no they are made of thin air

You claim you’re not socialist but this is completely a socialist view. Without interest no bank and financial institution would bother providing loans to the masses. They are not doing charities.

So “thumb up” to print more money? Is that the solution? ( well you have to admit it- all those economic growth you mention require substantial funding which US no longer have). They can, however keep raising the debt ceiling and get deeper in debt. ( thanks OBAMA).

Printing money isn’t a long term solution, that’s a fact. The first priority would be to balance the budget, this was brought forward in Clinton era:

When the budget has been balanced, the next step should be to tame the rise of national debt. US debt increases every year, and it’s essential to bring down such amount. Again, Clinton nearly annihilated the debt increase. By 2000, the US debt rose only $18bn, compared to $347 billion when he assumed the presidency.

http://cdn2.likethedew.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Natl_Debt_88-001-480x367.jpg

Things got so successful that time Clinton projected the US would pay off all its debt by 2010s

But something went wrong after Clinton (Bush & Obama), and this happened:


Bush and Obama reversed Clinton’s fiscal progression

All is not lost for America, high national debt awareness is now prevalent among Americans and this would have effects on their votes (hence politicians) If the US can undergo another 20 years of Clinton’s fiscal policies, such debts is not a problem, certainly not the end of the world.

clearly mismanagement by the Bush regime… from the chart it show that its possible to lower the debt… meaning - the statement a country must borrow / loan to fuel expansion is not really a correct statement.

by saying there no way to expand without having to loan nowadays doesnt mean that loan/debt is a good thing. the best is always to minimize debt/loan as low as possible.

[quote=“mevotex”]If you did not see another link I gave, here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_ … tructuring[/quote]

I’m not a big fan of the matrix encyclopedia. Anyone can edit it in theory, something to bear in mind when they conjure up fatuous excuses, to delete pages they don’t like.

Just take it as additional references like how you read from books and other sources. This info you don’t like, that info you don’t want to read, but then you assume we will accept your theories? I mean, theories like:

“We can no longer grow on this planet’”

  • Huh???

“Free market doesn’t work”

  • Explain the successes of Singapore, Taiwan or South Korea? Especially South Korea who requested bailout in 1997 and borrowed from IMF, successfully paying back in 2001.

“Give no-interest loans”

  • How? It is not possible. I once saw Islamic banking promoting themselves as ‘no interest’, and thought I can get free loan. But when I ask them, it seems I still need to pay a higher monthly installment no different than other banks, only they don’t call it interest.

Hey mevotex…what actually contribute to national debt of a country ?..like for example Malaysia, those opposition keep trumpeting about our debt increasing but where are the debts from ?

i got printer. i print money on paper. i print $1,5,20,100,1000 notes. i print trillion of them.

i use this printed money to buy everything you produce all over the world. i sit on my fat ass do nothing but i consume the finest.

you worked like dog producing goods for me anytime i want i sent in my soros posse to ravage you financially if your head grows too big to challenge me or if you gets the idea to print your own money i stop you with guns pointed at your head and tells you dont even think to try. think and dare and you ends up strung up like saddam and dog-died like gaddafi. soon an ayatollah will hang from my noose.

of course one day if all you saps realize my money not worth the paper its printed on then i am dead ■■■■. but you are all stuck too deep in my web of deceit to free yourself. i die you all die along.

now be a good slave and get back to working.

and no thinking.

God bless America. :slight_smile:

you owe money, you pay back - its easy

when you can’t pay back, keep print money. It’s easy!